Debate on training techniques, tools and methodology

[John]

Through a previous forum on Dog on dog aggression, I thought it a good idea to start a thread on all of the training techniques and tools we have come across.

Please if you can, provide reserch found on benifits or cuelty. Lets try and stray away from personal moralistic points of view, without personal experience, or scientifical proof, but by all means add your points of views.Saying things like they cause pain or makes a dog think this, without backing it up just makes it YOUR opinion.

All of these methods ARE reseched and tested and just because we may not find one in a "google" does not mean that they dont exist.

In this discussion lets cover
- Choke chains ( including "fur savers" )
- Prong collars
- Food training
- Harnesses, ( from "locking leash" to halters )
- Citrus collars
- Clicker training
- Electro training

I dont believe ANY training methods should be added into a lifestyle of a cainine without the proper education. After all its not just the dog that that "needs" to be trained ("needs" by human social standards that is) But a human or owner specifically HAS to be trained and educated in training and resposible ownership.

As I have mentioned I train large dogs mainly, I am given problem dogs to commit to and find the use of most training methods fall through without years of reinforcment or infact, ever being able to stop using such a method without replacing that method with another, such as a food training. Effectively, we try and train a cainine (especially a show quality dog) to recieve the proper training within 6-24 months maximum, as consistancy is very difficult to achieve over 10.

Here is some info behind the "Prong" collar

Prong collars from what I know were designed to evenly dissipate the pinch and restrict the amount of give in the chain. (as "slip" style choke collars dont have an end to how much you can pull and only provide a small area of pinch and a lot of "choke")
They are also apparently meant to emmulate the similarity to a dogs bit on the neck.

This is a excerpt from wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_collar

Prong collars (also called pinch collars) are a series of chain links with blunted open ends turned towards the dog's neck so that, when the collar is tightened, it pinches the naturally loose skin around the dog's neck. The design of the prong collar is such that it has a limited circumference, unlike slip collars, which do not have a limit on how far they can constrict on a dog's neck. Similar to the martingale collar, any pressure from the collar to the dog's neck is spread out over a larger area than with most buckle collars and with all choke chains.

Prong collars can also be turned inside out (with the prongs facing away from the dog's skin), to function like a martingale. Rubber tips are occasionally placed on the ends of the prongs to protect against scratching or puncturing the skin, though it is difficult to actually puncture the skin using this type of collar, because of this spreading effect, the limited constriction, and the already blunted tips. Like the slip collar, the prong collar should be placed high on the dog's neck, just behind the ears.

Some dogs can free themselves from prong collars by shaking their head so that the links pop out, so some trainers have come to use a second collar (usually a flat buckle collar) in addition to the prong collar.

(Information about study taken from an Anne Marie Silverton Seminar)

100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.

Source ( http://www.8pawsup.com/articles/training/prongcollars.html )


Citronella (Citrus) dog collar:

A collar based on "Barking prevention" similar to some electro collars
Regulary discussed, I dissagree personally (but will stray away for the leading post on my opinions) and as Ive said would like some proper documented proof, spanning a dogs life not just that the dog doesnt seem to be in pain so it isnt - type "facts". As you will see on the packaging of such collars, they are claimed to
-not go off if another dog barks.
-natural scent
-attention collar, not punishment
-not reccomended for dogs with high drive

I will add to this post when I have more time.

John.

[Pat and Laura (and Maple)]

This may sound illogical (and maybe a wee bit fruitcake) to some, but we like that the Gentle Leader is available in pink. How others respond to your dog when you are out and about can make a difference between a nice, easy stroll and a serious session in desensitizing. True, a dog and handler are always learning and you cannot control the behaviour of other people. I am suggesting that if a dog looks more aggressive that strangers are more likely to grab their kids and dogs, and maybe even say something mean. Our pitty, who just wants to lick every person and dog she meets, can pick up on that. Dressing her up like a pretty girl softens her image and fewer people react in a stupid fearful way when they meet her.

(I don't advise the headcollar in pink for Wallace, though. It might remind people of that old song, "Boy Named Sue.")

When discussing choke and/or pinch collars, I do not recall any one mentioning the Martingale collar. We haven't used one, but a greyhound in our last obedience class wore one. A Martingale collar will tighten for attention but has "brakes" to prevent injury. They are also available with interesting designs to that passers-by do not realize the dog is wearing a training tool.

[John]

Hehehe - fruitcake? Hardly, its pretty good common sense. First impressions count, along with vibe and the psyche of the enviroment a dog is in.
Good point with the martingale collar, I dont know how Ive missed it, Im using that on my mothers new Beagle currently, well she is I should say. I will add it..
Please add your impressions on it, Im starting to think this thread was a bit much on people..

[Pat and Laura (and Maple)]

Regarding the Gentle Leader, I would say it offers "control" like a bridle does for a horse. Did it "teach" our dog how to walk nicely? No. It does enable us to train without the distraction of the pulling and jumping. Our main concern is BSL. A nit-wit animal control officer talked our city council into a ban, with restrictions for those lucky grandfathered dogs. City council did not tell anyone about the new ordinance, much like they do not publish an agenda. A month later, the animal control freak was pounding on our door with a copy of the ordinance, complaining that we were out of compliance with insurance, beware of dog signs, etc. He (and the local police officers) stated we were in compliance with respect to muzzling our dog. Apparently they saw us using the Gentle Leader and/or Halti. Maple was just six months old then, and has worn a headcollar in public ever since.

If it wasn't "recognized" as a "muzzle," we would have dropped the headcollar a year ago. We really need to train and practice walking without it. For the Canine Good Citizen test, headcollars are not permitted. It is also an impediment for any sort of sport. Though she has attended advanced obedience classes, our dog has never truly learned to walk nicely without one. (Could a kid ever learn to ride a bike if you never took off the training wheels?)

As for the Martingale, the owner of the greyhound in our class swore by it. That dog was not a social critter like ours, though. (In fact, our Maple was the first dog that dog had ever taken an interest in. What can I say? Nobody can resist pitty kisses!) That dog liked to run, pure and simple. But she did not have that spontaneous, waggling jump-up response to every dog and person the way our dog has. I can only imagine Maple in a Martingale, getting her neck squeezed every time she sees somebody but not being deterred from trying to pull forward anyway. Like those dogs that burst through radio-fences in pursuit of a squirrel.

[Mats Carlsson]

The situation in your country is bad, very bad... It is hard to belive that Media has such power and can make lies they tell to the truth to so many people. The dog can not learn to walk good in a leach without headcollar if it does not have the possibility to try so, that is of course common sense.

The dog need socialisation and to be able to practice obediance in a park for instance. It needs to say hello to people, specially a Pit Bull. If the dog feels that all people around dont like him and are scared of him. If he see that other dogs can run around and he has to wear a muzzle and be inside all the time or locked in a dog house. Then he will feel bad. He does not know why it is that way, why the owner not let him play in the park with him and with others.

We here in Sweden have a lot of Bullshit written in Media and a lot, a lot of people beliving it. You can see it in the comments to their bullshit articles in the newspapers where Pit Bull "experts" that can not even spell the rases name right get to say what they "know" about how vicious they are. You can tell by reading it that a lot of them have not even met a real pit bull terrier or an amstaff or staffordshire bullterier. One of the rases that here are pointed out as "fighting dogs".

But lucky enough our politicians are not that stupid as the people in this question. In Sweden it was up to one man to decide how it should be, the agricultural minister. He did a one man investigation around it, since we have had a lot of problem with idiots fighting dogs in the big cities without knowing anything about nothing, letting them run loose among people and use them as weapons in their criminal activitys. Most of the time there was pit bull mixed with rottweiler for the human agression the pit bull lacks.

The agriculture minister has convinced the others that it is not the breed thats the problem. The new law we have now is because of the problem with "fighting dogs" and "pit bulls". It targets on them because the problem right now is them, but no rases are mentioned in the law. The law talks about "dangerous dogs". So i think thats good. In Germany that has very strong restrictions in some states, in some no at all. They have starten to loosen up the restrictions.

I say like this. If the people wants to be afraid i let them. I dont handle my dogs very different from if i would have had a labrador. Of course i have perfect control over them and i take them feet when i meet people. But the lie here in the sun outside the house in daytime. We train obidience in the street three times a day. One of us is positioned in the corner of our yard so we see in good time if a person with a dog is coming. That is not because we have more dangerous dogs then others, it is because thats the way to handle dogs. Other walked around before with dogs loose and with no control on them. I have told them about it but they have been unpolite back most of them, exept one of them with a little terrier that was thankful when i told him what could happen if the terrier ran in to our yard where our dogs are.

They have now when Milo is fully grown and they have seen us train them in the yard and seen how fit they are started to walk buy with their dogs in leech, i think thats fine. They look when they pass in their cars with disguise some of them because our "fighting dogs" are having fun in the yard, playing loose with one of us. Yesterday i played with a neighbors german shephard. showed him some flirtpole. Then the people passing by in cars did not even look said my fiance. Fuck them i say, let them be scared if they are scared of the best rase in the world.

Our closest neighbours love our dogs and has commented on how safe they are and well behaived and so on. The others... they can as i use to say "be afraid" because there is nothing dangerous with them as long as they have control over their own dogs. The danger here for the kids are they when they drive their cars by to fast. I hurts to see my little baby get disgusted looks when we are in town. They not know him like i doo. If anyone would make a bad comment on one of my dogs they would get to know what i think about their limited intelligence. If someone would be so stupid as to kick one of my dogs he should have to pay for it with blood. Then they should see who is the fighter, and it would not be the dog i have with me. The dog would be outside the whole situation while daddy teaches the man whats not accepted. I hope it will never come to that, but i know that i would not be able to control myself if somebody without reason would kick my dog. So far i have only had looks when i have been with him in town. It is not everebody that when sauber and alone pics a fight with me either, with or without an Amstaff.

I am DISGUSTED to be honest with how low people can sink and how unintelligent they can be. That they can read only the tabloids, that they can make what the Media say, their lies the TRUTH. Especially strange is that in USA where you have such a long history with those fine dogs. It should not be possible to ly to people this way, but it is.Told enoung times a lie becomes the truth. I look down on people like that, i dont understand how they can buy these lies. It is grown up people with kids, houses and summer houses and with own "fine" dogs...it is totally unreal the whole situation.

Mats

[Mats Carlsson]

Thanks John, very good initiative.

I will read all your post, specially the link out to the labrador site. That lab site did not look to academic to me as a source. But it mentioned some research dpne by a Ann Silverton. I will try to find that. As we know for something to be academic and to have value as source there have to be a certain amount of research and to be done in such way that you can surely say that what is said is correct. Im not sure that that research is on that level and there is only one that is mentioned. In Sweden for something to be scientifically proved there has to be 1500 individuals involved in it, when it comes to man that is.

However that research points for sure in a direction that prong collars are a good training tool and not a bad, dangerous and painful one. I myself are not unwilling to change my opinion and learn something new. Maybe as Roe say that i am wrong when i can correct my dog quithe hard by an ear pinch but not be able to accept a training tool like a prong collar. If those figures are accurate i am glad that i have stopped using the choke collar and i hope it did not have time to damage my young dogs neck in any way.

However, as i said my favourite is the head nose halter. Two months with that and the former "Bulldozer" Milo walks very fine in the leach. When he is out of his problem age (he is now 15 months) he will walk just like Camilla our female dog, like a ballerina. Her you dont even feel when she walks foot with you. I am astonished and glad that it has went so well for us because as i said before i have not been interested in dogs for much longer time then i have had Milo, and thats 13 months. But both of us are very thorough and train the dogs much, much obedience training. It is now 3 times a week and has been up to six times. It will never be less then tree times a week. That is absolutely necessary to get a dog to walk well. Otherwise you can have any tool you want i think. The obidience has to come from that you are the leader and that the dog sees you as such, he obey your will gladely because when he does right you reward him. Positive motivation is very useful i have seen, they never work as good as when you motivate them by telling them how good they are.

Also something i have not been commented on i think is when i said that AFTER the ear pinch, directly after the dog seeks contact in different ways that i described. It is then necessary to be good to him and cuddle with him and so on. That has nothing to do with the prong... i now, not directly. But the prong is not on always and in the house for instance he has to be corrected to. All that what you do makes the dog walk good in a leach. I dont think you can take walking as an isolated thing and fix that with a prong and dont do right in every other situation and dont train obediance and train the dog physically and mentally. The dogs walks never so good in leach as after a obediance training with folowing physical training. When bicycling with he is walking best in leach. Understimulated dogs with no obediance i think you have to almost strangle with the prong for getting results, then you really have to hurt them with it if its a prong that makes that possible.

Correct me if im wrong in what i say, im a beginner with dogs, but maybe further on i will be a real good dog handler. However right now im quite sure i have something to give to this thread. I will also be the first to say im wrong if i is that when it comes to my opinion on prong collars. It really seems to be that way.