I must add a little to what i wrote. We are going to buy a farm with some land. Thats why we then can have more dogs. We can then feed them raw meat and bones and will have plenty of place for them. We want the best so therefore we have pits as family dogs.
For guard dogs we will have Boerboel (Soutafrican Mastiffs). Even if some pits guard good too. Those Mastiffs are good too with people but it takes fifteen minutes for them to relax when somebody new comes in to the house. The Boerboel are bred for another purpouse as we know. The females of that breed goes along with other dogs and cats. With the males its another story.
They are fine;) We are renovating the house now so we dont have time to train them as much as we want. But in two months the house will be finished inside and outside and then we will have MORE PITBULLS;) And other dogs too. In fact we are getting home the sister to our male now because the owners has separated and the man cant take care of both of them. Shes a wonderful dog too, exactly like Milo in temperament and build. Shes fat and understimulated now but that we will change in a couple of weeks. Your pup is so cute. It reminds me of Milo when he was little.
yep- we're in the NW part of MO, near Kansas city- and ANY bully breed- is pretty much not welcome. Several cities around us are banning 'pitbulls' and other breeds like mad! we're so lucky that BSL hasn't completely made it into our city- banning my poor Lucky!
Like i said= brindle is so uncommon around here- - people look and hate him, or look and love him. He's a pit mix, but just because he has the "coloring of a pit bull" = people question him. :/
People that are not farmilular with dogs don't realize there are various other breeds that can have brindle fur! Like grey hounds, bulldogs, mastiffs, and boxers.
The barf diet for dogs is 'bones and raw food diet'. More natural for a dog then just dry kibble- all the dogs i've seen on this diet look AMAZING. We're looking to convert to the Barf diet- it's just SOO expensive with 6 dogs!
well u should add more pics then!
We got lucky when he was 6 lbs!! He was so adorable!! Now he's a giant! I chose him out of 11 pups. There were fawn/bown and brindle. I WANTED brindle, and he was the only brindle= and now there's lucky!
Brindles not that common around here= so people are always looking at him :)
i've been trying to read up on ur and mats convo around APBT vs Am Staff...
It's all so confusing!
around here- either way they are bullies, and not welcome :(
Any body is welcome here as i see it. Even though the scenery of my area is dull, i would take any and all of the pups who are in trouble in other countries in a heartbeat if it was feasable. Does Marco even know he has been discussed???? LOL :) the ol' guy is just minding his business and i have managed to tell a story. :)
I dont know if he has seen that he is discussed;) If he has im sure he will not take offense. We have as far as i see it dont said anything bad about him?
Hope everything is ok "over there" i am working here on the office, its 16.41 pm now, sunny and fine outside even if we have much snow left to, but thats melting away fast now.
Not sure if Marco would think it was as pretty here :)
Dont you think so? Why, im not following? Because of the BSL hanging over everyone i suppose?
It does make perfect sense. I've seen so many variations of APBT appearance. My first male that i owned years back was tall and athletic. He only weighed 65 pounds at one year old. I joked that he was a gazelle. I have a good friend who has one that is very short but VERY VERY stocky. So stocky in fact that his stride is very wide and totally unnatural. His head looks twice as large as it should be for his size and with his height below my knee, weighs over 65 pounds. He was chosen because of these traits and I believe he is a piece of work but not my taste.
Yes, since they are bred for gameness they can vary very much in size and build.
His owner did not respect his strength in the beginning and left him un-supervised with another APBT female for half a day and came home to find her with two completely broken legs and completely mauled. The dog had never shown any aggression ever before but was left alone with another dog who was extremely hyperactive and for almost sure she annoyed him into the act. The owners lesson has been learned now that these dogs were truly bred to take down other animals, but at that expense. It comes with the Responsibility part of owning these dogs.
It often gets bad and very tragic when these dogs are left alone. As long as you think about what you are doing and take precausions there is no problem at all with having game bred dogs in the house together. They must be supervised all times and a breakstick shall be in the house where you can get it fast. There is a thread here about breakstick and how to use it that is very good.
Several friends breed for the athleticism as "Catch" dogs for boar hunting. I know little about it but it seems exciting.
I think so too. Many people, well most people here in Sweden, should think that was animal cruelty but i dont know. I think its ok as soon as the boar is killed directly after catched by the Pit Bulls.
Another breeder that i work with breeds Bull Mastiffs and Rottweilers. Supposedly the Rottweilers were truly bred using the original breeds over time that make up the Rotts. Again out of my knowledge range. Several of his what he calls "Pitts" are in the range of 100+ pounds. Not used for breeding but as family pets.
They can weigh that much but its not common. Mayday (A chinaman) His "pit weight" was 75 lbs, but then they are totally ripped. Thats around 92-100 lbs with normal body fat on. A beutiful dog. Thats the most weight on a pure bred pit bull i have heard of. The weight is normally much less. I will tell you more about that but its over midnight here and we must go out with the dogs;)
Sorry that I dropped so many questions on you but even people in my personal circle who handle or own APBTs know very little about them. I'm really in search of more knowledge about this breed. Its the most interesting of breeds to me. If i'm going to make this commitment for this breed and try to set an example with my own then i want all the knowledge to better inform others.
Its not good that those who breed dont now the history and the old Champions and Grand Champions. Grand Champions that were dogs that had several wins (Gr Ch) and ROM stands for "Register of merit". That is those who pass on to their litters the gameness that in turn make them to champions. With enoug offspring that is champions they get to be called ROM. 5w is five times winner in matches on the highest level. This is history but to be able to understand the breed you have and to be able to discuss in a good way you have to know everything about the history. I am beginning to learn and know a little, will read everything there is about the breed and have the books in a bookshelf in our "dog room" that we will have when we have more dogs. We will then there have a couch we can sit and read in and pics on the wall of old well known dogs. We will have a treadmill there and a springpole so we can train two dogs as we chill;) There will be cages they can sleep in with good room and soft to lay on.
I am against dog fighting but old time dog men gave us this unique breed and i want the old breeding lines to be preserved. Once again as i always say in discussions. With the right owner is the best breed in the world. With the wrong owner it can be a nightmare. Especially if they are game bred.
I'm not nearly as interested in breeding as others. Not that i'm opposed to it but with what my occupation requires and my wife's as well, i don't have the time to do it. We also own a very jealous 5 year old male chihauau that almost seems emotionally devastated that "Bo" our 11 week old pit pup is even in the picture. I do really appreciate your time talking to me about this subject and I hope you do enjoy discussing it. And I did appreciate you sending the link about the EU petition and i have signed it. Any way that i can help
You should not just breed if you want to do it but you must have a goal with the breeding. First of all you shoud stick to the APBT standard with good old breeding lines. I have some kennels i can show you if you decide to start breeding. But before you take pups you must have buyers for them and good people that care for the breed just as much as you do. Otherwise, if you dont have that and especially if you have no time. You have made the right decision there Since you dont have time you dont breed. Its as simple as that.
A breeder is one that knows a lot about lines and breeding and not just breed for the money. Those they call "puppy peddlers". The goal is of course not to breed gamedogs for gaming but be so true to the APBT standard as possible and take dogs from the best lines and kennels. If you do so you will move on the old great APBT breeding lines. Mixing breeding lines is not good they think that breed only for game. But breeding only for game means inbreeding and that means not healthy dogs. That is a fact. By taking dogs with good pedigree with not much inbreeding and start to build up a kennel i think is the best way to go. To breed for both working capacity and also for good family dog temperament at the same time (which most of the game bred dogs have).
Its good to help each other like that. You dont have to exuse youself for asking questions. I can give you links later to movies and to books on amazon for instace so you can study. I will when we have settled down on the farm we will buy;)
Sorry.. i thougt i was writing all this to Marco;) I answered one question after another with him in mind. I thougt it was strange that he all of a sudden lived in USA.. ok;) I hope you are not to confused, not as much as i was and i hope you make sense of what i wrote. Please ask if you have any questions.
This is what i got from UKC.
Thank you for contacting United Kennel Club. Please read through theprocess below to determine your dogs eligibility. For a dog that is not already registered with UKC as part of a litter, andwhose parents are not both UKC registered, we do offer Single Registration.The rules for Single Registration for the American Pit Bull Terrier are asfollows: 1. The dog must be at least one year of age 2. Completed UKC "American Pit Bull Terrier Application for SingleRegistration" (available on our website athttp://www.ukcdogs.com/res/pdf/fo23adm.pdf) 3. Copy of dog's registration certificate from UKC recognized registry. ForAPBT we recognize the American Kennel Club, American Dog BreedersAssociation (ADBA), The Kennel Club, The Canadian Kennel Club or any FCIregistry 4. Copy of dog's complete three generation pedigree (photocopy orhandwritten pedigree is acceptable) 5. Three color photos (one of each side and one from the front in astanding position) 6. The dog must be inspected by an approved UKC inspector. View InspectorsList for contact information for the inspector in your area. If aninspector is not available, a 20 minutes video presentation may besubmitted in lieu of an inspection. The video should show the dog in apublic place interacting and being pet by strangers 7. Registration fee of $45.00 (payable as a personal check, money order orMasterCard or Visa) Please note that these requirements are needed to register your dog withUKC. Examinations and DNA profiling provide limited information and wouldnot be sufficient to register a dog or verify a dog is purebred. A dogwithout a complete three generation pedigree and registration with anapproved registry will not be considered for registration with UKC. If youare unable to provide all of the above requirements, you may list your dogthrough our Limited Privilege program if the dog has been spayed orneutered. Please feel free to reply to this email to request an "American Pit BullTerrier Application for Single Registration" be mailed to you, be sure toinclude your name complete mailing address and name of the application youwish to receive. Thank you again for contacting us. Registration DepartmentUnited Kennel Club, Inc.www.ukcdogs.com
I saw your thread on Charlotte Hagens page about pit and am staff traits. Are the only real trait differences for registering purposes nose color & non-solid white coats?
That is the physican traits.Dark eyes, not to little pigmentation around the eyes, black nose, not totally white and yes, not more then 80% black either in a dog.
I see so many examples of what a person calls a pit. The term am staff is not a common name used here in America among dog owners or at least here in the south.
In practic as i see it most of the Pit Bulls are bred like Amstaffs today. So in USA they call them all Pitbulls. It can be a little confusing;) They dont care so much about APBT standard anymore in USA in temperament och looks. When they breed for "game" they dont care about size and looks but still the APBTs that are gamebred are a little higher on the legs, slimmer, more atlethic and lighter. Its almost always so even if there are big APBTs too. With that i mean that a real APBT shall be slim and atletic and shall have a lighter weight to be within "APBT standard". That with size its important, the ones that want "Real APBTS" thats gamebred dont want them too big even if there are big gamedogs like for instance Mayday that weighed 34kg in pit weight. When breeding only for gameness of course the size can vary.
The Amstaffs are bigger and have not so much left in them from the old APBT . They have not much gameness even if some breeding lines like Tacoma and Misisippi Red Ruffian (Earl Tudors dogs) with "tight" breeding (inbreeding to get them "pure") are very much like a APBT although bred within Amstaff standard. There are some other lines too i dont have the names of. Game breeding means dog fighting and i dont like that but i appreciate the old breeding lines because of their outstanding working capacity. Even though i have never met one i know what working machines they are.
From the beginning there was Pit Bulls registered in AKC that went to UKC and got Amstaff registered there, it is that way still. That started in 1936 when Dog Fighting got forbidden in USA. There were 40 something APBTS that was the foundation for Amstaff. First they were called Staffordshire Terriers from the mining district in England where the first Staffordshire Bull Terriers came to USA from. A dog from Colby called Primo was for a long time setting the standard for how an Amstaff should look.
Then in the seventies, 76 i think it was, they started to call them American Staffordhire Terriers - Amstaffs. There is continiuesly taken a little APBTS in to the Amstaff breeding because there was to few dogs from the start. In the seventies the books were opened. As i said Earl Tudors dogs, a lot of them, went in to Tacoma in the seventies, a Gr Ch 16w among them.
I did once own a brindle "Pit" that was deemed a "pit bull" by the shelter. LITERALLY. She was 8 weeks old and they had no knowledge of her breeding. When i first saw her i immediately called her an am staff, due to what i had seen in an APBT book and her lanky athletic physique, and i was immediately corrected by the shelter worker who said "no thats a pit bull and she will probably be euthanised if an APPROVED family dosent adopt her." I immediately asked for an application and the decision took over an hour to be made by the shelter's manager.
They often call them Amstaff mixes in the shelters here so they wont get eutanized.
People here get technical and say they have a Coby, Red Nose, Blue pit, Alligator pit, and on and on.
I want to get technical too because i want old breeding lines. They are as i said the best working dogs. But i dont want the inbreeding there is in the best "gamedogs". To get them "pure" they inbreed them very much and that makes them sometimes get defects, cancer and so on. Inbreeding is never a good thing. Its not so either that a complete and very deep game dog will be the best for your purpouse. They can be very instabile even if they have extreme gameness and for the dog fighting purpose is the best. They are often very intelligent but they tend to be that even if they are not top game too. My Amstaff male has enough drive for a working dog, good strong genes and a good health. For me thats important in breeding.
What you want in schutzhund is great prey drive, and a hard working, strong biting dog. Correct me if im wrong. A very deep game dog or might not be right for you. I think a mix of old fine breeding lines with well known dogs in the bottom is the best. Thats what we are going for. We must buy UKC reigstered Amstaffs. There are them with APBT pedigree there. UKC let dogs in from AKC as i said but no ADBA breeder with the best dogs will sell us a puppie and UKC register it. It a lot of rules that has be fulfilled if you want a ADBA dog to be Amstaff in UKC. I will post the mail i got from UKC about it here. From AKC to UKC its just a formality as i understand it. But if you wanna go to shows and breed for shows too, they of course must meet the show standards.
Its a Now that i know a little more, i understand that APBT is the UKC breed name and Am-Staff is the AKC. OK, you have seen the pics of mine? What would you call it from where you are from? :)
UKC dont like the ADBA since they breed for gameness and dont acknowlidge them. ADBA dont like UKC since they think they have only "Staffordshires" there;) Your look like an very big atletic Pit Bull. The dog is exactly how i like them.
There are also what they in USA call "American Bullies". They are if you ask me wrong bred. I hope i dont hurt anyones feelings here. But they are often blue and blue is nothing that you should breed for. The blue dogs are more often sick, can easier have parvo and skin defects and so on. If a dog is black but come from a blue dog those things goes downwoards in the pedigree. Therefore its not good to see people charging five times more for blue dogs. Their bone structure is often wrong to. They are as far from atletic there is.
The best old lines left now what i have heard are chinaman, red boy/jocko. I can show you kennels if you like. The best way to learn is to read on the internet i have seen and books. I have bougt five good books on Amazon.com. They are from Richard F Stratton, Diane Jessup, Lou Colby, Colby/Jessup. I will read them when i have time;) You can also look at movies at youtube of "gamedogs". Mayday is a favourite of mine. He is dead now but hes blood lives on. Hes big and we want big pits. Chinaman is a legend, he had a strong bite and good wind. He was scientifically tested to have the air of a greyhound. Red boy was game but had not a hard bite. Jocko was fast as a weasle. When they crossed them they got the "full package". Thats for gaming, thats history or at least should be.. , but i think its wrong to throw that 250 years and several hundreds of generations out the window. Lets preserve those old lines without gaming i say. There is other ways to test a dogs working ability and "dead game", when a dog fights to his death there is no need for in society today, that was before when people dont knew better.
Jeep is strong dogs too, they are from Crenchaws Jeep. They often use them for hunting wild boar i have heard. You can look in too www.game-dog.info there you have a little history. Diane Jessups page is good too http://www.workingpitbull.com/.
Another page that has a lot of good information about the history of pit bull and the man behind it seems to have good dogs for weight pull and defence work is "Rios Pit Bull Kingdom". http://www.riospitbull.com/
He has good old breeding lines in the bottom. Sarona, Jeep, Alligator, Chinaman and so on.
I hope i has cleared it out a little for you even if im a beginner in both Amstaff/Pit Bull and dogs in general;) But im very interested and are going to read all i can get my hands on and edjucate myself. I will go to scool and study too so i can be a dog trainer and get in to schutzhund classes. As it is its almost impossible here to get in to a regular course at a dog club in obedience or tracking. We train ourselves and as i think quite sucessfully as we have got good help from the kennel we bought our Amstaff male from.
Do you meen Breed-specific legislation (BSL), as any law, ordinance or policy which pertains to a specific dog breed or breeds, but does not affect any others. The term is most commonly used to refer to legal restrictions or prohibitions on the breeding and ownership of certain breeds.
If so, Norway has a law that sais that Pitbull and American Staffordshire Terrier is not allowed in Norway. Pitbulls are banned but American Staffordshire Terrier that is born before 2004 (when the law came) is allowed to live her, but we can not breed with them or sell them to other people. I think the law is terrible and I really hope they will change it.
ha. that's ok. I didn't take u as a smarty pants-- im certainly not either! :)
but since they're two DIFFERENT breeds- that's why i wonder- why did the "Hyperflite Guide to Disc Dogs" (a book to teach ur dog to play frisbee- awesomebook- had lots of wallace pics) call Wallace a BULLDOG? lol
yes. that might be so. But what makes it even more confusing is that the UKC recognizes both American PIt Bull Terriers and American Bulldogs= being two different breeds.
Hey Corey
i have read your lines against BSL, We had it here in The Netherlands and we are done with it now we finally won the battle but against huge costs and suffering from the part of our K9 friends. i am happy that there are people standing up for dogs as no one has never been capable to explain to me how you can make a dog responsible for his own behaviour. and i reckon it to be the most important question to ask everybody especially those who don't want to hear such questions
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How is it? New pics if you wanna look at our three dogs.
Mats
We got one more now. Shes Milos sister. Sigrid is her name, or "Siggan" ;)
We are taking her in this weekend.
http://api.ning.com/files/tGZDvdaajw*b5VanRwIb*DIYsLScpzuCt*X1N*jzc7-zAYuHhPGWCrvwcKDxI2FpWluo2*Gho-ZG8Uxee5KX6HJENVwCvH40/Siggan.jpg__Mats
I hope you have a nice weekend, we have. Take a look at this one;) I hope this person is not for real or that its not ment seriously.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KVO057JqvQs/SesaeCeCzUI/AAAAAAAAAyw/LCGMRWYBfJ0/s1600/1-7afcbdc3cd0349c9.jpg
Mats
For guard dogs we will have Boerboel (Soutafrican Mastiffs). Even if some pits guard good too. Those Mastiffs are good too with people but it takes fifteen minutes for them to relax when somebody new comes in to the house. The Boerboel are bred for another purpouse as we know. The females of that breed goes along with other dogs and cats. With the males its another story.
Mats
They are fine;) We are renovating the house now so we dont have time to train them as much as we want. But in two months the house will be finished inside and outside and then we will have MORE PITBULLS;) And other dogs too. In fact we are getting home the sister to our male now because the owners has separated and the man cant take care of both of them. Shes a wonderful dog too, exactly like Milo in temperament and build. Shes fat and understimulated now but that we will change in a couple of weeks. Your pup is so cute. It reminds me of Milo when he was little.
Mats
Like i said= brindle is so uncommon around here- - people look and hate him, or look and love him. He's a pit mix, but just because he has the "coloring of a pit bull" = people question him. :/
People that are not farmilular with dogs don't realize there are various other breeds that can have brindle fur! Like grey hounds, bulldogs, mastiffs, and boxers.
The barf diet for dogs is 'bones and raw food diet'. More natural for a dog then just dry kibble- all the dogs i've seen on this diet look AMAZING. We're looking to convert to the Barf diet- it's just SOO expensive with 6 dogs!
We got lucky when he was 6 lbs!! He was so adorable!! Now he's a giant! I chose him out of 11 pups. There were fawn/bown and brindle. I WANTED brindle, and he was the only brindle= and now there's lucky!
Brindles not that common around here= so people are always looking at him :)
i've been trying to read up on ur and mats convo around APBT vs Am Staff...
It's all so confusing!
around here- either way they are bullies, and not welcome :(
I dont know if he has seen that he is discussed;) If he has im sure he will not take offense. We have as far as i see it dont said anything bad about him?
Hope everything is ok "over there" i am working here on the office, its 16.41 pm now, sunny and fine outside even if we have much snow left to, but thats melting away fast now.
Cheers
Mats
Dont you think so? Why, im not following? Because of the BSL hanging over everyone i suppose?
It does make perfect sense. I've seen so many variations of APBT appearance. My first male that i owned years back was tall and athletic. He only weighed 65 pounds at one year old. I joked that he was a gazelle. I have a good friend who has one that is very short but VERY VERY stocky. So stocky in fact that his stride is very wide and totally unnatural. His head looks twice as large as it should be for his size and with his height below my knee, weighs over 65 pounds. He was chosen because of these traits and I believe he is a piece of work but not my taste.
Yes, since they are bred for gameness they can vary very much in size and build.
His owner did not respect his strength in the beginning and left him un-supervised with another APBT female for half a day and came home to find her with two completely broken legs and completely mauled. The dog had never shown any aggression ever before but was left alone with another dog who was extremely hyperactive and for almost sure she annoyed him into the act. The owners lesson has been learned now that these dogs were truly bred to take down other animals, but at that expense. It comes with the Responsibility part of owning these dogs.
It often gets bad and very tragic when these dogs are left alone. As long as you think about what you are doing and take precausions there is no problem at all with having game bred dogs in the house together. They must be supervised all times and a breakstick shall be in the house where you can get it fast. There is a thread here about breakstick and how to use it that is very good.
Several friends breed for the athleticism as "Catch" dogs for boar hunting. I know little about it but it seems exciting.
I think so too. Many people, well most people here in Sweden, should think that was animal cruelty but i dont know. I think its ok as soon as the boar is killed directly after catched by the Pit Bulls.
Another breeder that i work with breeds Bull Mastiffs and Rottweilers. Supposedly the Rottweilers were truly bred using the original breeds over time that make up the Rotts. Again out of my knowledge range. Several of his what he calls "Pitts" are in the range of 100+ pounds. Not used for breeding but as family pets.
They can weigh that much but its not common. Mayday (A chinaman) His "pit weight" was 75 lbs, but then they are totally ripped. Thats around 92-100 lbs with normal body fat on. A beutiful dog. Thats the most weight on a pure bred pit bull i have heard of. The weight is normally much less. I will tell you more about that but its over midnight here and we must go out with the dogs;)
Pics of Gr Ch 5W Rom Mayday
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj162/tamalonzo/tankuda-a.jpg
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dogs/pictures/159268.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/hobbiehobbie/mayday.jpg
Sorry that I dropped so many questions on you but even people in my personal circle who handle or own APBTs know very little about them. I'm really in search of more knowledge about this breed. Its the most interesting of breeds to me. If i'm going to make this commitment for this breed and try to set an example with my own then i want all the knowledge to better inform others.
Its not good that those who breed dont now the history and the old Champions and Grand Champions. Grand Champions that were dogs that had several wins (Gr Ch) and ROM stands for "Register of merit". That is those who pass on to their litters the gameness that in turn make them to champions. With enoug offspring that is champions they get to be called ROM. 5w is five times winner in matches on the highest level. This is history but to be able to understand the breed you have and to be able to discuss in a good way you have to know everything about the history. I am beginning to learn and know a little, will read everything there is about the breed and have the books in a bookshelf in our "dog room" that we will have when we have more dogs. We will then there have a couch we can sit and read in and pics on the wall of old well known dogs. We will have a treadmill there and a springpole so we can train two dogs as we chill;) There will be cages they can sleep in with good room and soft to lay on.
I am against dog fighting but old time dog men gave us this unique breed and i want the old breeding lines to be preserved. Once again as i always say in discussions. With the right owner is the best breed in the world. With the wrong owner it can be a nightmare. Especially if they are game bred.
I'm not nearly as interested in breeding as others. Not that i'm opposed to it but with what my occupation requires and my wife's as well, i don't have the time to do it. We also own a very jealous 5 year old male chihauau that almost seems emotionally devastated that "Bo" our 11 week old pit pup is even in the picture. I do really appreciate your time talking to me about this subject and I hope you do enjoy discussing it. And I did appreciate you sending the link about the EU petition and i have signed it. Any way that i can help
You should not just breed if you want to do it but you must have a goal with the breeding. First of all you shoud stick to the APBT standard with good old breeding lines. I have some kennels i can show you if you decide to start breeding. But before you take pups you must have buyers for them and good people that care for the breed just as much as you do. Otherwise, if you dont have that and especially if you have no time. You have made the right decision there Since you dont have time you dont breed. Its as simple as that.
A breeder is one that knows a lot about lines and breeding and not just breed for the money. Those they call "puppy peddlers". The goal is of course not to breed gamedogs for gaming but be so true to the APBT standard as possible and take dogs from the best lines and kennels. If you do so you will move on the old great APBT breeding lines. Mixing breeding lines is not good they think that breed only for game. But breeding only for game means inbreeding and that means not healthy dogs. That is a fact. By taking dogs with good pedigree with not much inbreeding and start to build up a kennel i think is the best way to go. To breed for both working capacity and also for good family dog temperament at the same time (which most of the game bred dogs have).
Its good to help each other like that. You dont have to exuse youself for asking questions. I can give you links later to movies and to books on amazon for instace so you can study. I will when we have settled down on the farm we will buy;)
Take care
Mats
Cheers
Mats
Thank you for contacting United Kennel Club. Please read through theprocess below to determine your dogs eligibility. For a dog that is not already registered with UKC as part of a litter, andwhose parents are not both UKC registered, we do offer Single Registration.The rules for Single Registration for the American Pit Bull Terrier are asfollows: 1. The dog must be at least one year of age 2. Completed UKC "American Pit Bull Terrier Application for SingleRegistration" (available on our website athttp://www.ukcdogs.com/res/pdf/fo23adm.pdf) 3. Copy of dog's registration certificate from UKC recognized registry. ForAPBT we recognize the American Kennel Club, American Dog BreedersAssociation (ADBA), The Kennel Club, The Canadian Kennel Club or any FCIregistry 4. Copy of dog's complete three generation pedigree (photocopy orhandwritten pedigree is acceptable) 5. Three color photos (one of each side and one from the front in astanding position) 6. The dog must be inspected by an approved UKC inspector. View InspectorsList for contact information for the inspector in your area. If aninspector is not available, a 20 minutes video presentation may besubmitted in lieu of an inspection. The video should show the dog in apublic place interacting and being pet by strangers 7. Registration fee of $45.00 (payable as a personal check, money order orMasterCard or Visa) Please note that these requirements are needed to register your dog withUKC. Examinations and DNA profiling provide limited information and wouldnot be sufficient to register a dog or verify a dog is purebred. A dogwithout a complete three generation pedigree and registration with anapproved registry will not be considered for registration with UKC. If youare unable to provide all of the above requirements, you may list your dogthrough our Limited Privilege program if the dog has been spayed orneutered. Please feel free to reply to this email to request an "American Pit BullTerrier Application for Single Registration" be mailed to you, be sure toinclude your name complete mailing address and name of the application youwish to receive. Thank you again for contacting us. Registration DepartmentUnited Kennel Club, Inc.www.ukcdogs.com
That is the physican traits.Dark eyes, not to little pigmentation around the eyes, black nose, not totally white and yes, not more then 80% black either in a dog.
I see so many examples of what a person calls a pit. The term am staff is not a common name used here in America among dog owners or at least here in the south.
In practic as i see it most of the Pit Bulls are bred like Amstaffs today. So in USA they call them all Pitbulls. It can be a little confusing;) They dont care so much about APBT standard anymore in USA in temperament och looks. When they breed for "game" they dont care about size and looks but still the APBTs that are gamebred are a little higher on the legs, slimmer, more atlethic and lighter. Its almost always so even if there are big APBTs too. With that i mean that a real APBT shall be slim and atletic and shall have a lighter weight to be within "APBT standard". That with size its important, the ones that want "Real APBTS" thats gamebred dont want them too big even if there are big gamedogs like for instance Mayday that weighed 34kg in pit weight. When breeding only for gameness of course the size can vary.
The Amstaffs are bigger and have not so much left in them from the old APBT . They have not much gameness even if some breeding lines like Tacoma and Misisippi Red Ruffian (Earl Tudors dogs) with "tight" breeding (inbreeding to get them "pure") are very much like a APBT although bred within Amstaff standard. There are some other lines too i dont have the names of. Game breeding means dog fighting and i dont like that but i appreciate the old breeding lines because of their outstanding working capacity. Even though i have never met one i know what working machines they are.
From the beginning there was Pit Bulls registered in AKC that went to UKC and got Amstaff registered there, it is that way still. That started in 1936 when Dog Fighting got forbidden in USA. There were 40 something APBTS that was the foundation for Amstaff. First they were called Staffordshire Terriers from the mining district in England where the first Staffordshire Bull Terriers came to USA from. A dog from Colby called Primo was for a long time setting the standard for how an Amstaff should look.
http://images.google.se/imgres?imgurl=http://www.amstaff-world.nl/websitefoto%27s/Colby%27s-Primo.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.amstaff-world.nl/Colby%27s%2520Primo.htm&usg=__cENA32e_cEtEhT5Qu14jDvwHHLo=&h=280&w=180&sz=11&hl=sv&start=1&um=1&tbnid=W2gO7MNJXYHKTM:&tbnh=114&tbnw=73&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dprimo%2Bcolby%26hl%3Dsv%26rlz%3D1B3GGGL_svSE261SE261%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1
Then in the seventies, 76 i think it was, they started to call them American Staffordhire Terriers - Amstaffs. There is continiuesly taken a little APBTS in to the Amstaff breeding because there was to few dogs from the start. In the seventies the books were opened. As i said Earl Tudors dogs, a lot of them, went in to Tacoma in the seventies, a Gr Ch 16w among them.
I did once own a brindle "Pit" that was deemed a "pit bull" by the shelter. LITERALLY. She was 8 weeks old and they had no knowledge of her breeding. When i first saw her i immediately called her an am staff, due to what i had seen in an APBT book and her lanky athletic physique, and i was immediately corrected by the shelter worker who said "no thats a pit bull and she will probably be euthanised if an APPROVED family dosent adopt her." I immediately asked for an application and the decision took over an hour to be made by the shelter's manager.
They often call them Amstaff mixes in the shelters here so they wont get eutanized.
People here get technical and say they have a Coby, Red Nose, Blue pit, Alligator pit, and on and on.
I want to get technical too because i want old breeding lines. They are as i said the best working dogs. But i dont want the inbreeding there is in the best "gamedogs". To get them "pure" they inbreed them very much and that makes them sometimes get defects, cancer and so on. Inbreeding is never a good thing. Its not so either that a complete and very deep game dog will be the best for your purpouse. They can be very instabile even if they have extreme gameness and for the dog fighting purpose is the best. They are often very intelligent but they tend to be that even if they are not top game too. My Amstaff male has enough drive for a working dog, good strong genes and a good health. For me thats important in breeding.
What you want in schutzhund is great prey drive, and a hard working, strong biting dog. Correct me if im wrong. A very deep game dog or might not be right for you. I think a mix of old fine breeding lines with well known dogs in the bottom is the best. Thats what we are going for. We must buy UKC reigstered Amstaffs. There are them with APBT pedigree there. UKC let dogs in from AKC as i said but no ADBA breeder with the best dogs will sell us a puppie and UKC register it. It a lot of rules that has be fulfilled if you want a ADBA dog to be Amstaff in UKC. I will post the mail i got from UKC about it here. From AKC to UKC its just a formality as i understand it. But if you wanna go to shows and breed for shows too, they of course must meet the show standards.
Its a Now that i know a little more, i understand that APBT is the UKC breed name and Am-Staff is the AKC. OK, you have seen the pics of mine? What would you call it from where you are from? :)
UKC dont like the ADBA since they breed for gameness and dont acknowlidge them. ADBA dont like UKC since they think they have only "Staffordshires" there;) Your look like an very big atletic Pit Bull. The dog is exactly how i like them.
There are also what they in USA call "American Bullies". They are if you ask me wrong bred. I hope i dont hurt anyones feelings here. But they are often blue and blue is nothing that you should breed for. The blue dogs are more often sick, can easier have parvo and skin defects and so on. If a dog is black but come from a blue dog those things goes downwoards in the pedigree. Therefore its not good to see people charging five times more for blue dogs. Their bone structure is often wrong to. They are as far from atletic there is.
The best old lines left now what i have heard are chinaman, red boy/jocko. I can show you kennels if you like. The best way to learn is to read on the internet i have seen and books. I have bougt five good books on Amazon.com. They are from Richard F Stratton, Diane Jessup, Lou Colby, Colby/Jessup. I will read them when i have time;) You can also look at movies at youtube of "gamedogs". Mayday is a favourite of mine. He is dead now but hes blood lives on. Hes big and we want big pits. Chinaman is a legend, he had a strong bite and good wind. He was scientifically tested to have the air of a greyhound. Red boy was game but had not a hard bite. Jocko was fast as a weasle. When they crossed them they got the "full package". Thats for gaming, thats history or at least should be.. , but i think its wrong to throw that 250 years and several hundreds of generations out the window. Lets preserve those old lines without gaming i say. There is other ways to test a dogs working ability and "dead game", when a dog fights to his death there is no need for in society today, that was before when people dont knew better.
Jeep is strong dogs too, they are from Crenchaws Jeep. They often use them for hunting wild boar i have heard. You can look in too www.game-dog.info there you have a little history. Diane Jessups page is good too http://www.workingpitbull.com/.
Another page that has a lot of good information about the history of pit bull and the man behind it seems to have good dogs for weight pull and defence work is "Rios Pit Bull Kingdom". http://www.riospitbull.com/
He has good old breeding lines in the bottom. Sarona, Jeep, Alligator, Chinaman and so on.
I hope i has cleared it out a little for you even if im a beginner in both Amstaff/Pit Bull and dogs in general;) But im very interested and are going to read all i can get my hands on and edjucate myself. I will go to scool and study too so i can be a dog trainer and get in to schutzhund classes. As it is its almost impossible here to get in to a regular course at a dog club in obedience or tracking. We train ourselves and as i think quite sucessfully as we have got good help from the kennel we bought our Amstaff male from.
Cheers
Mats
That was fine Marco, i appreciate it. Spread the link around to all you know.
Mats
If so, Norway has a law that sais that Pitbull and American Staffordshire Terrier is not allowed in Norway. Pitbulls are banned but American Staffordshire Terrier that is born before 2004 (when the law came) is allowed to live her, but we can not breed with them or sell them to other people. I think the law is terrible and I really hope they will change it.
but since they're two DIFFERENT breeds- that's why i wonder- why did the "Hyperflite Guide to Disc Dogs" (a book to teach ur dog to play frisbee- awesomebook- had lots of wallace pics) call Wallace a BULLDOG? lol
ur puppyis adorable by the way!
so who knows:D
i have read your lines against BSL, We had it here in The Netherlands and we are done with it now we finally won the battle but against huge costs and suffering from the part of our K9 friends. i am happy that there are people standing up for dogs as no one has never been capable to explain to me how you can make a dog responsible for his own behaviour. and i reckon it to be the most important question to ask everybody especially those who don't want to hear such questions
Marco
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